The Michigan State University Board of Trustees is seeing two members step down at the end of the year: Chair Dan Kelly and Trustee Dianne Byrum.
WKAR sat down with both of them to talk about their accomplishments, the difficulties the board has faced and what’s next for them.
WKAR's Sophia Saliby first spoke with outgoing Chair Dan Kelly who’s served on the board since 2017.
Interview Highlights
On the board's toughest moments during his tenure
It's been a very interesting eight years, as anybody that's paying attention knows. Obviously, the toughest issue, and I came on the board when Dr. Nassar was in jail, so it had started to unravel before I even got there, but there's no doubt, dealing with the whole Nassar situation, the survivor community, that was by far the most difficult thing I had to go through. There have been more recent flare ups within the board as well, and it was difficult, particularly the change with President Stanley.
On potential changes to how the board interacts with community members
I think it's very important that the public and students at MSU have the opportunity to talk directly with the board ... Another thing that we did last week was take a look at whether or not it would be more productive rather than have a mandatory six board meetings, keep it at a minimum of five, and then maybe repurpose that sixth meeting for more of that interaction, so that we can have a real discussion, as opposed to whatever it is, an hour or an hour and a half of comment after comment after comment. So, I think the board has tried to work with students, tried to be transparent. It's difficult in those situations. We have a lot of work to do. I've always tried to remind the board that the board meetings, are first and foremost, the business of the university, and while public comment is very important, I think there could be a better way. And I know the President's working on that, a better way for us to really deal with those issues more constructively.
On his reflections on serving on the board
It was an honor, really, for me to represent the residents of the state on the MSU Board. It was a rough eight years. I jokingly say to people when they asked me what my term was, it was an eight-year sentence. But I only say that in jest, right? It was an honor. I met a lot of friends, made a lot of friends at the university. I think it's a wonderful university. I love the university. My four kids went there. I didn't go there, by the way, but my four kids did. So, I've really gained an appreciation and love for the university, and that will stay with me the rest of my life.
Interview Transcript
Sophia Saliby: The Michigan State University Board of Trustees is seeing two members step down at the end of the year. We’ll be speaking to both of them about their accomplishments, the difficulties the board has faced and what’s next for them.
We’re here with outgoing Chair Dan Kelly who’s served on the board since 2017. Thank you for joining us.
Dan Kelly: Thank you.
Saliby: To start, what are you most proud of during your time on the board?
Kelly: Well, I would say, for the university as a whole, the selection of the new president, Kevin Guskiewicz. I'm very excited for his presidency. I think he's an excellent choice and a good person. So, that would be the most important accomplishment for me.
Saliby: The university has seen kind of a handful of presidents during your time in the board, both interim and permanent. So on that topic, how would you characterize your working relationship with President Kevin Guskiewicz compared to previous university leaders like President Samuel Stanley Jr.?
Kevin [Guskiewicz] is a communicator. He reaches out. He communicates with board members on a regular basis, so that has been probably the greatest improvement and change from prior presidents, so I appreciate that from him.
Kelly: Well, my working relationship with Kevin is great for lack of a better word. Kevin is a communicator. He reaches out. He communicates with board members on a regular basis, so that has been probably the greatest improvement and change from prior presidents, so I appreciate that from him.
Saliby: Are there places where you think the university can grow?
Kelly: Sure, absolutely. One of the exciting things is the relationship with the Henry Ford Health system, and the joint efforts that are are starting with buildings and the sharing of faculty and the improvement of grants to the university through that relationship. So, that's a very exciting thing for the entire university.
Saliby: What do you think was the toughest moment for you in this position of authority at the school? And you can maybe speak both as chair and also maybe as a trustee, something along that entire eight-year period you've been with the board.
Kelly: Well, it's been a very interesting eight years, as anybody that's paying attention knows. Obviously, the toughest issue, and I came on the board when Dr. Nassar was in jail, so it had started to unravel before I even got there, but there's no doubt, dealing with the whole Nassar situation, the survivor community, that was by far the most difficult thing I had to go through.
There have been more recent flare ups within the board as well, and it was difficult, particularly the change with President Stanley. So, those were probably the three most difficult that I would say on the board.
Saliby: Did you feel like what Stanley said about the board, that the board collectively, was making it hard for him to do his job. Do you feel like that was accurate, or do you disagree?
I think a lot of the issues with [Stanley's] presidency could have been avoided with better communication with the board.
Kelly: From his perspective, that that may be true. From my perspective, I think a lot of the problems were the lack of communication with the board, which he was here during COVID, and so I think that exacerbated some of the communication problems.
We weren't meeting, obviously, as regularly as we should have been, or not that we should have been, but that we could in previous years and in recent years. So, I'm sure that Dr. Stanley has a different interpretation of it. I think a lot of the issues with that presidency could have been avoided with better communication with the board.
Saliby: I want to turn to some of these recent flare ups that you brought up. In October, the board clarified and tightened some ethics rules related to receiving gifts and potential conflicts of interest, and that came after Trustees Rema Vassar and Dennis Denno were censured earlier this year for violating board bylaws. Do you think more needs to be done to strengthen ethics policies for trustees?
Kelly: No, I think we've done a lot of work in that regard. One slight correction, what Trustees Vassar and Denno were censured for was accumulation of a number of allegations. Some of which were confirmed, or at least confirmed by the Miller & Chevalier report and other matters that had come up as a result of that investigation.
So in that regard, I don't know that there was a complete consensus of the board, other than the vote to censure. And what that was based on could have been different for individual board members.
Saliby: What was it for you?
Kelly: Oh, I've made it clear that the most concerning thing for me was the interaction with the students, and at least the allegation that was for the purposes of, how should I say, being derogatory to the interim president and and I think the board's role is we can have discussions with the president, disagreements with the president, and in that case, the interim president, which I certainly have had over the years. But I think that, for me, and why I voted yes for a censure, it was with regard to that concern that I had.
At any given time, there are issues between eight different board members and any president, including the interim president at that time.
Saliby: Could you feel that tension at that time between those trustees, Vassar and Denno, and Interim President Woodruff?
Kelly: Well, the tension, I guess I can't pinpoint any one thing, but at any given time, there are issues between eight different board members and any president, including the interim president at that time.
Saliby: The board also forwarded a request to Governor Gretchen Whitmer in March to consider removing Vassar and Denno. The governor has so far not responded to that request. Do you stand by that decision to send it? Because I know some incoming trustees to the board have said they wouldn't have done that.
Kelly: Yeah, I don't have the actual resolution, but I think the resolution is being, in some cases, misreported to be honest with you. The resolution went through the censuring which was, as indicated, removal from subcommittees and return of tickets. It was, if you want to call it a referral to the governor under the statute, that's all it was.
It wasn't a recommendation for removal. It wasn't a recommendation one way or another for what the governor should do. I felt that it was appropriate to acknowledge that the governor has the sole authority to remove an elected official, and so that's why I voted for it and included that language. But I didn't believe it to be a recommendation one way or the other. That's within the exclusive authority of the governor.
Saliby: Do you feel like the governor should respond to that request more directly?
Kelly: I'm assuming that the governor will when the time is appropriate, and I don't have any great insight into what's going on at that level. So, yeah, I can't really comment, but I would assume at some point the governor will resolve it.
Saliby: I want to turn to another issue that's been central on Michigan State University's campus, but also on university campuses across the country, the university and the Board has faced increasing calls from campus community members to divest from Israel as well as businesses with ties to the war in Gaza. Do you think the board has done a good job listening to those concerns?
Kelly: Yes, I think the board has, and in fact, just at the last meeting last week, we updated that investment policy with the intent to give a process for handling these type of requests for divestment or to invest or to not invest in the future, so there's a forum for that, instead of just coming to the podium and expressing. The podium is not a good place for the back and forth that's necessary for these complicated issues.
So, part of the investment policy that we passed last week allows for a better process of communicating that and for it to be reviewed by professionals in the field to see whether there is something that can be done or not done. So, I think it's a good step for the university.
Saliby: Have you noticed a change since you started to now about how these conversations happen on campus?
Kelly: Well, I mean, personally, I've been on public elected boards for 24 years, not just MSU. I was on a community college board. I've been on local boards and then, of course, as in my profession, I'm an attorney that represents municipalities and has in the past represented school districts. So boards and public boards are like almost a part of my life. I have, two meetings tonight that I'll attend to, so I'm not really taken aback by the interaction with either students or the public in general as to any particular issue.
I think the board has tried to work with students, tried to be transparent. It's difficult in those situations. We have a lot of work to do. I've always tried to remind the board that the board meetings, are first and foremost, the business of the university, and while public comment is very important, I think there could be a better way.
I think it's very important that the public and students at MSU have the opportunity to talk directly with the board. I did not support reducing the amount of time. I think reasonable restrictions are fine, but I do want that input. I think, and part of, again, another thing that we did last week was take a look at whether or not it would be more productive rather than have a mandatory six board meetings, keep it at a minimum of five, and then maybe repurpose that sixth meeting for more of that interaction, so that we can have a real discussion, as opposed to whatever it is, an hour or an hour and a half of comment after comment after comment.
So, I think the board has tried to work with students, tried to be transparent. It's difficult in those situations. We have a lot of work to do. I've always tried to remind the board that the board meetings, are first and foremost, the business of the university, and while public comment is very important, I think there could be a better way. And I know the President's working on that, a better way for us to really deal with those issues more constructively.
Saliby: Like a town hall-type setting?
Kelly: Yes, a town hall, a workshop, the ability to sit with a group and have a real back and forth. It's very difficult, if you followed the meeting, I think our meeting went three and a half hours last Friday, and so it's difficult for everybody involved to just sit and listen to complaints over and over and over with no real ability, as I've said, to have a back and forth in a real, true interaction to discuss what can be done, why the university is doing what it's doing.
So, yes, town hall, workshop, smaller groups, representative groups. That's, I think, where the President is heading with this, and I think that's a great idea, but that's to happen in the future. So, I wish them luck on that.
Saliby: Can you talk about the decision to remove this phrase within this investment policy that we've been talking about, about considerations of "social conscience" when it comes to investments or disinvestments?
And people had cited that as a reason to divest from Israel, and people cited MSU's past of divesting from South Africa, for example, during apartheid. Can you talk about the decision to remove that and what that means for these future conversations that are going to be happening?
Kelly: Well, this came from the primarily from the business and finance subcommittee, as well as our investment professionals, where that term has a different meaning to a number of different people. And so, when you have that, you have discrepancies now as to what is the direction of the investment policy. So, you have to have better defined terms and that was something that was brought up. One person believed that anything was on the table to divest from, if you believed that that was something that was important to them. And on the other side, others felt that it had less of a meaning.
So, those are not the kinds of things that you want to have, in my opinion, in policies and when it was identified, I agreed with the opinion that it should be removed. That's not to say that we cannot have further conversations about all of these issues, but have to be well-defined, because ultimately, what that investment policy is doing is directing our investing representatives on how to invest our money. And if it's unclear what that direction is, then you're not going to accomplish what you want. So, that's all going to be part of the discussions moving forward, but I agreed with it to be removed because of the lack of a definition.
Saliby: Looking ahead, Mike Balow is stepping in next year as the only elected Republican on the board. Do you have any advice for him?
Kelly: Mike and I have talked several times. What I would say to Mike, and I believe he will, and that is to keep an open mind. Obviously, it's going to take a while to get the lay of the land. I think that Mike will come in and keep an open mind. I think he's going to be a hard worker, so he will dive into the issues, and that's the most important thing you can do, and then, ultimately, you vote your conscience and and if he does that, he'll be fine.
I recognize that I'm a Republican. I've been the only Republican on the board for a while. I've been in the minority, I believe, the entire time I've been on the board. But the other side of it too is 95% of what we do, as far as the business of the university, is not really about the different parties that we're in. So, we can come to an agreement as to what's in the best interest of the university most of the time.
Saliby: What do you plan to do next?
I jokingly say to people when they asked me what my term was, it was an eight-year sentence. But I only say that in jest, right? It was an honor.
Kelly: Well, I'm busy. I run my own law firm, and we're growing. So, I've got eight lawyers in my law firm, and as I said, I represent communities, and so I'm at plenty of board meetings. So yeah, I don't have a problem filling the time.
I should say, I mean, it was an honor, really, for me to represent the residents of the state on the MSU Board. It was a rough eight years. I jokingly say to people when they asked me what my term was, it was an eight-year sentence. But I only say that in jest, right? It was an honor. I met a lot of friends, made a lot of friends at the university.
I think it's a wonderful university. I love the university. My four kids went there. I didn't go there, by the way, but my four kids did. So, I've really gained an appreciation and love for the university, and that will stay with me the rest of my life.
Saliby: Dan Kelly is the outgoing chair of the Michigan State University Board of Trustees. Thank you for joining me.
Kelly: Yeah. Thank you for asking.
This conversation has been edited for clarity and conciseness.