ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
From NPR News, this is ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. I'm Ari Shapiro in Washington.
MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
And I'm Mary Louise Kelly in Anchorage, Alaska. When you fly in here, as I just have, to cover the Trump-Putin summit tomorrow, you skim low across water and land in a city that is roughly the same distance from Moscow and Washington - some 4,000 miles and change from each capital. Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin will be landing to discuss a possible end to Russia's war in Ukraine, a war that at the moment is not letting up. In fact, it has seen an increase in drone warfare. NPR is among the few news organizations that still has reporters in both Russia and Ukraine, and we have got them on the line now to talk through where the war stands as this summit is about to get underway - NPR's Charles Maynes in Moscow and NPR's Greg Myre in Kyiv. Hi, you two.
GREG MYRE, BYLINE: Hi, Mary Louise.
CHARLES MAYNES, BYLINE: Hi there.
KELLY: Greg, I'm going to let you start from there in Kyiv, and just get us up to speed with the nature of the conflict and how it has been changed by drones.
MYRE: Well, Ukraine from the very beginning of this war has used the drones very creatively and effectively in ways we'd never seen before to neutralize Russia and its much larger and more powerful, traditional military. But after being on the receiving end for a few years, Russia has been learning and is now unleashing large numbers of drones against Ukraine almost every night. You know, prior to this year, Russia might fire a couple dozen drones on a typical night, but that's now rising dramatically.
Last month, Russia sent an average of more than 200 drones into Ukraine per night. On the most intense night, Ukraine faced more than 700 drones. And these drones are dangerous on their own, but they also occupy the Ukrainian air defenses, and that helps clear the way for larger, more powerful Russian missiles that often come shortly afterward.
KELLY: And Charles, jump in from Moscow. How did Russia develop this capacity - seemingly quite quickly - to turn out so many drones?
MAYNES: Yeah. You know, when Russia launched its invasion of Ukraine in - or full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February of 2022, Russia had drones that were good for reconnaissance or intelligence gathering, but there weren't many of them, and they certainly weren't part of the Russian war plan. That's since changed, thanks initially to friends in some unusual places, says Omar Al-Ghusbi of the Center for Advanced Defense Systems in Washington.
OMAR AL-GHUSBI: So if you are looking to procure drones, what better actor to go to than the Iranians, who have demonstrated they have the capability to produce such weapon systems for low cost and despite having significant sanctions put on the country for, you know, the last several decades?
KELLY: So introducing the outsized influence of other actors such as Iran, Charles, how much have Iranian drones changed Russia's strategy?
MAYNES: Well, they helped with the war planning, but there was a problem. There weren't enough of them. So sometime around late 2022, Russia acquired the technology and started modifying them. They became jet instead of propeller powered. That meant they could fly faster and farther. And then Russia started to produce them en masse, most notoriously in a facility in the Republic of Tatarstan.
But that's only part of it. You know, the Russian government is also recruiting civilian hobbyists to develop their own models. Some have been approved with seed funding from the defense ministry to scale up. And that plant in Tatarstan I mentioned, it includes a polytech school that recruits high school students and foreigners for work study programs. And so altogether, instead of just a couple of drones or a couple dozen drones, Russia can now unleash hundreds in a night, and often does, as Greg mentioned.
MYRE: And Charles, here in Ukraine, the military acknowledges that it's very difficult to deal with this Russian onslaught. We sat down this week with Ukraine's Air Force spokesman Yurii Ihnat.
YURII IHNAT: (Non-English language spoken).
MYRE: So he's saying here that Ukraine destroys incoming drones with helicopters, fighter jets, electronic jamming, machine guns, missiles fired from the ground, but some Russian drones still get through. Now, perhaps the most promising technology is using defensive drones to take down incoming offensive drones, and this looks to be the next big innovation in drone warfare. Ukraine already has these defensive drones or drone interceptors, but supplies are limited. President Volodymyr Zelenskyy recently visited a plant and said Ukraine needs to build a thousand of them a day, though it will take several billion dollars of investment to meet this target.
KELLY: So that's what Ukraine's doing. But Charles, back to you - what is the quality of all of these drones that Russia is putting into the fight?
MAYNES: Well, they're not cutting edge, but they're up to the task. Moreover, Russians are getting more creative. You know, for example, they're deploying drones attached to fiber-optic cables, a communications line, which keeps Ukraine from jamming the drone electronically. Now, of course, such fiber-optic drones can only go as far as their cable is long, so they're not great for distances. But it's effective in frontline areas, so much so that the battlefield photos will show land strewn with these cables, almost like tangled fishing lines.
And I want to stress that the reason we know any of this is because Russia has made no secret of it. You know, the defense ministry here has run lengthy film documentaries that take viewers really inside the operation. And why? I suppose it's because it's a propaganda tool. They're proud of what they've accomplished with these drones in a relatively short period of time.
KELLY: And Greg, we've been talking about Ukraine's drone defenses. What about the other side of it? What is the country doing on offense?
MYRE: Well, Ukraine is striking almost daily deep inside Russia. In fact, the military said today it hit a large oil refinery in Volgograd in southern Russia, igniting a big fire. And this is an important plant, and it's been hit several times now. This is very much in line with Ukraine's recent focus on oil facilities and railway stations - parts of Russia's transportation network that takes ammunition and other supplies to Russian troops.
KELLY: Charles, last word to you, and I wonder if you would go big picture for us. Drone warfare - how does it fit into the overall military approach from Russia these days?
MAYNES: Well, I think you can tell it with an anecdote. You know, this past May, I was on Red Square for the annual Victory Day events celebrating the Soviet defeat of Nazi Germany, and there was a striking moment. You know, we're all used to seeing these Russian tanks and troops and ICBM missiles in this parade. And that's really the pantheon of Russian pride and military might. Well, this year, there was a new edition - a flatbed truck hauling drones across the square.
KELLY: Such vivid imagery. NPR's Charles Maynes in Moscow, thanks. Good night to you.
MAYNES: Good night.
KELLY: And Greg Myre in Kyiv, thanks.
MYRE: Sure thing, Mary Louise. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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